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by kklynch from ashtabula county

Last Post 113 days, 10 hours Ago


     "LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
     "Yes, sir."
     "So you believe in God?"
     "Absolutely."
     "Is God good?"
     "Sure! God's good."
     "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
     "Yes."
     "Are you good or evil?"
     "The Bible says I'm evil."

     The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"
     "Yes sir, I would."
     "So you're good...!"
     "I wouldn't say that."
     "Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could...in fact most of us would if we could....God doesn't."
     [No answer]
     "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
     [No answer]
     The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. "In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

     "Er... Yes."
     "Is Satan good?"
     "No."
     "Where does Satan come from?"
     The student falters. "From... God..."
     "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

     "Yes, sir."
     "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
     "Yes."
     "Who created evil?"
     [No answer]
     "Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All the terrible things - do they exist in this world? "
     The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
     "Who created them?"
     [No answer]
     The professor suddenly shouts at his student, "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice, he asked, "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"
     [No answer]
     The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"
     [No answer]
     "Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and
     whispers, "Is God good?"
     [No answer]

     "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
     The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."
     The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
     "No, sir. I've never seen Him."
     "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
     "No, sir. I have not."
     "Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"
     [No answer]
     "Answer me, please."
     "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
     "You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
     "No, sir."
     "Yet you still believe in him?"
     "...yes..."
     "That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"
     [The student doesn't answer]
     "Sit down, please."

     The first Christian sits...defeated.

     Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

     The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, yet another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

     The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"
     "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
     "Is there such a thing as cold?"
     "Yes, son, there's cold too."
     "No, sir, there isn't."
     The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The second Christian continues.
     "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 273 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than -273°C. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

     Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.

     "Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"
     "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"
     "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"
     "Yes..."
     "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light... but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you... give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

     Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"
     "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."
     The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!"
     "Sir, may I explain what I mean?"
     The class is all ears.
     "Explain... ohhhhh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability himself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

     "You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it." The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"
     "Of course there is, now look..."
     "Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"

     The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.
     The Christian continues, "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if He exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil.1 What is that work God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."2
     The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

     The Christian replies, "I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going, Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
     "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
     "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
     The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.
     "Professor. Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
     "I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.
     "So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"
     "I believe in what is - that's science!"
     "Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..."
     "SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters.

     The class is in uproar. The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"
     The professor wisely keeps silent.

     The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's mind?" The class breaks out into laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelt the professor's mind? No one appears to have done so." The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no mind."

     The class is in chaos.

     The Christian sits.


If you didn't get it, here is a brief synopsis. The atheist argument is that since God created everything, He is responsible for the creation of evil. However, "evil" is a word that we use to describe certain things that happen to us (most of which are caused by other people). In reality, it is not a physically created thing at all and, therefore, does not fall within the realm of something created by God. So, the argument is fundamentally flawed. As stated on this site, evil is allowed by God so that free will beings can choose between good (i.e., God) or evil (absence of God). Without evil, it is not possible to choose between good and evil, and the universe would have no ultimate purpose.

18 Comments |  Add a Comment

Member Comments Total Comments: 18
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sofakingdabest read my blog view my photos
Aug 29, 2008 | 12:20 PM

I don't like evil. I wish everything was good. If evil disappeared tomorrow, I wouldn't miss it. I know I sound childish, because to really know goodness, one has to experience evil. These are the teachings of the Buddah.

Catastrophe2 read my blog view my photos
Aug 29, 2008 | 8:54 PM

God is NOT interested in your "religion" He's only interested in your RELATIONSHIP with HIM!!

kklynch read my blog view my photos
Aug 30, 2008 | 6:02 AM

ty cat i wanted to say something but im done trying to argue with ppl about religion. ty again cat

Catastrophe2 read my blog view my photos
Aug 30, 2008 | 9:59 AM

kk Dont argue about religion with anyone. Just plant a seed thats all you can do. Remember God loves all of us no matter what. Alot of people put up a front to appear hard. When push comes to shove you dont have to answer for their actions. In the end you only have to answer for your actions or non actions.

stuman read my blog
Sep 2, 2008 | 11:09 PM

oh gimme a break. organized religion is a brainwashed cult. if there was a god as you descrie it. then your god is all-powerful--why can't it conquer evil?

bill maher has a movie coming out at the beginning of october... called 'religionless'. i encourage all of you to watch it. i know alot of you will be too gutless to watch it...because it will make you think about the absurdity of it all.

jesus is dead and gone. he was a good man, but his fan club ruined it for him (among other things)i think its great that you folk can hold on to something that represents good.. but a fictional character? come on. nobody you know has ever seen this heaven thing. no human being has ever seen this kingdom of gold. you are all just going off of what other humans have told you what they have heard--not seen. it heresy. nobody has ever known what you think or feel after death. its all words that living people have told you. there ARE NO WITNESSES.


i could write so much more than this skelotal type. but i know it would fall on deaf ears and i won't waste my time...you can reply all you want because i won't visit this blog again to read what you will say about my opposing view. i've been hearing it all my life and i'm not buying it.

october--there is a movie coming out by BILL MAHER...it's called religionless. i encourage you to watch it...many of you won't because you hate the thought of what he might say. you want to stay biased. yes, i am biased too--but at least i have been force fed your nonsense all of my life and i have the 'other side of the story' already

Catastrophe2 read my blog view my photos
Sep 3, 2008 | 12:40 AM

Sheesh anyway its called FREE WILL. Evil is part of life. If you had ever really read about it you would understand it.

Im sure without a doubt I will watch the movie. Talk about absurd you think we evolved from apes yep thats a good one.

There ARE WITNESSES actually I can tell you of the peace you feel right before dying. The Pastor of the church can tell you what it was to die. Wake up boy.

Its not that it falls on deaf ears its just when you are wrong you are wrong get over it.

At least we know who is GUTLESS, You. If not you would come back and visit this blog. By you not coming back you show what you say isnt worth anything to you so why bother typing it?


It may be nonsense to you but I hate to tell you buddy most all of us know and have heard both sides because like you we have also heard people like you spill this crap everywhere. And thats fine your beliefs are yours and my beliefs are mine. Fact is you think you evolved from an APE and I dont. Sorry I aint buying that one. Since your not coming back I bid you farewell, buh bye

kklynch read my blog view my photos
Sep 3, 2008 | 1:05 PM

as a matter of fact God can conquer evil as well stated in 1 Corinthians

1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God can conquer evil but he is waiting for the opportune time in order to save some more through the deliverance from hard times.thats how we grow as Christians.


as for this movie ill go ahead and watch it but i can tell you that i have had bigger influences to take me away from God than your movie will be.

yes Jesus is dead from this world but he is not gone. he was and is a good man who did more for us than any of your theories will point out. he does NOT have a fan club he has dedicated believers.

i would like you to show solid proof that God is fictional. until you do i do not want to hear about your beliefs because i posted this as a message to fellow believers not to people who are pushing their stultifying beliefs on us. this is a faith blog----if you do not like what is being posted then leave, do not try to push your doltish beliefs on us.

my pastor has been dead and God knew he had more to do on this earth and God sent him back to us. something made the doctors continue to work on him and it was God and the prayers of my church. also my mom who is also catastrophe2 had died and the both of them felt the peace and the greatness of the almighty God and he sent them back to us.

the only witness i need is the almighty and he has been around for eternity and he has seen ever

kklynch read my blog view my photos
Sep 3, 2008 | 1:07 PM

everything that has gone on and that is ALL I NEED. SORRY THAT YOU CANNOT SEE WHAT I HAVE AND FEEL THE PEACE I HAVE THROUGH GOD.

kklynch read my blog view my photos
Sep 3, 2008 | 1:49 PM

well stuman please see my post titled "Pastor brought back to life" more proof there for you. GOD BLESS

kklynch read my blog view my photos
Sep 3, 2008 | 2:35 PM

But why doesn't God destroy all evil and prevent its returning?

He could, of course, but in so doing He would be destroying morally free creatures. And God could have created a world in which evil was impossible; but then He would have to have created a world without morally free creatures. The only alternative to a morally good world that contains evil is not a morally good world that contains no evil but a morally neutral world that contains neither good nor evil. Such a world, of course, wouldn't contain us. So which do you prefer: a world that contains you, or a world that doesn't?

A world that contains me. I see your point. I guess God and evil are compatible. But just why would God have permitted evil? What purpose is there in it?

First of course it was the only way to create a morally good world. But what was His purpose for evil? Christians believe evil serves a number of purposes, all consistent with God's plan for the world and, especially, for individual people.

One purpose is to occasion certain moral goods that could never come about without evil. One can never forgive someone without someone's doing something evil, right? Forgiveness is one of the highest moral goods, but it is a moral good that could never come about without evil. One could not have mercy without someone's doing something evil that deserved punishment. One cannot have compassion for those who suffer without someone's suffering, and compassion is also a very high virtue. These and other goods all depend for their existence and expression on the existence of evil. So God permits

Catastrophe2 read my blog view my photos
Sep 6, 2008 | 10:13 AM

"It's none of your business what my religious beliefs are. Whether I believe in God or not, is and should be totally irrelevant to you. What should matter is whether I offer support when needed, treat my friends with kindness, raise my children to make the world a better place. These are the things that are important - not any personal beliefs that I have - or lack there of . Please spare me the attempts to "educate" me into your way of believing . It's called "TOLERANCE" people - know it, use it, love it. -Laurie Snowflake"

Catastrophe2 read my blog view my photos
Sep 6, 2008 | 10:14 AM

Thats for stuman

EdwardN
Sep 21, 2008 | 8:26 PM

You stated that Evil is just the absence of Good but acknowledge that Evil exists in the world which would make it seem as tangible as Good and not just the abstraction you made it out to be at first. That said, the question remains what are Good and Evil? Semantics. In the past we did not know that cold was the absence of heat so we named it. In the past we did not know that darkness was the absence of light so we named that too. Those are physical, truly tangible constructs of our world. Morality? Good and Evil? Those are speculations: simply and purely subjective at that. Just as cold and hot are the naming of characteristics (which may or may not exist) so are Good and Evil. Why can't we say that Good is the absence of Evil? There is no empirical data to read from. No tests done. You are assuming that Evil is the absence of Good when for all we can know and prove it may just as concretely be the opposite. At least we have proven that cold is the absence of heat.


On the subject of Evolution which you crudely paraphrased for your readers, here is what you fail to mention, or rather, mention erroneously: "No evolutionist or rational person with even a haphazard understanding of the principles of Evolution will ever tell you or anyone else that mankind evolved from monkeys." No, we did not evolve from monkeys. Monkeys, however, evolved from a creature some 70 million years ago known as a Prosimian. Prosimians evolved from Insectivores. We, similar to monkeys, evolved from Prosimians. Keep in mind, at no time did a monkey that you may walk down and

EdwardN
Sep 21, 2008 | 8:28 PM

(Sorry about the choppy post. New to the site.)


gawk at in your local zoo evolve into you or I. We cannot trace our ancestry back to a no name Chimp half a billion years ago. Prosimians show as much human characteristic as they do Chimp and Gorilla characteristics and following that trend, their bones (surprisingly?) also show these characteristics. Maybe more surprisingly their genome shows this also to be true. Have I ever seen evolution take place in my day to day life? Like you've seen God create the earth in 7 days. Have I looked at fossil records throughout various Anthropological studies at Binghamton University? You bet I have. I've seen the gradual evolution from the ancient to the modern and all its branching through records, skulls that I've held and the common sense to piece the block puzzle together. There's nothing complicated to try and piece. Little by little we Did evolve from Prosimians. That isn't speculation anymore, it's fact. Ignorance (in case you wondered) is not real either, just the lack of acceptance for facts.



On the topic of the mind. I admit that I cannot see your mind. Nor can I see your soul. Can I see where your mind comes from? Sure. The Psychological and Biological sciences have known for years where your thoughts come from. What lets you piece together complex pieces of data into a working understanding of existence (albeit a flawed one). We all know what mechanism it is that gives you your personality, your joys and sorrows... Your fears of loneliness and a meaningless existence. It's all in the brain.

EdwardN
Sep 21, 2008 | 8:30 PM

Senses are taken care of chiefly in the Thalamus and Hypothalamus. Dopamine networks laced throughout your brain give you happiness and fear comes from your Amygdala. Finally, all that is you. Your ability to rationalize. To complete complex equations. To lie. All of this comes from your Prefrontal Cortex. In essence you are sentient because you can think and form opinions, moral or otherwise. You are sentient then because of your abnormally large Prefrontal Cortex. I say abnormally large in relation to your total Brain mass and that ratio compared to the Prefrontal Cortex to Brain ratio of other, non-sentient animals. Unlike squirrels and possums. Unlike monkeys and dogs, we have a uniquely large Prefrontal Cortex. We dedicate more of our brains to thinking and reasoning than any other animal and this reflects in our Prefrontal Cortex. This is documented. These truths are verified and validated through a multitude of tests the likes of which are up to you to search for should you choose (and I hope you do) to argue against me after this. Try citing half as many these findings that support the true existence of a soul. Soul is just a name. It was created back when mankind did not know that darkness was the absence of light and that cold was the absence of hot. It was long before we understood the astute machinations of the mind and it has been proven to be a spiritual take on a completely physical phenomenon.


Speaking to your very brief synopsis of Universal Meaning. To assert, in the light of the afore mentioned scientific findings, that the reaso

EdwardN
Sep 21, 2008 | 8:31 PM

reason* for existence is to choose between the completely subjective principles of "Good" and "Evil" is absurd. I don't believe that there is any greater reason for existence than to exist. That is the only opinion I will set forth in this response that has no scientific grounding.



Enjoy or not, but please at least Think.

-Sincerely,
Edward N.

kklynch read my blog view my photos
Sep 22, 2008 | 3:11 AM

ok well i will think but one thing is for sure, that is quite hypocritical for you to tell me to do as a Christian when you as, i would believe, an atheist do not think and consider my views. i put up with a lot on this site because i am not afraid to speak my mind (as you will be too) i am not going to criticize you or try to get you to change what you believe. i deal with ppl doing that to me all the time. however, i will, to you and anyone else who tries to change my mind and my beliefs, stand up for what i believe.

kklynch read my blog view my photos
Sep 22, 2008 | 3:17 AM

i do NOT try to change what ppl believe, however, i try to change what they dont believe. if i can change that "i dont believe that God is the creator" way of thinking to a "i think there is a possibility of the existence of God" then my work is done in my view but also i do understand that others have that right also and i respect it (as long as you are not rude, cocky, snotty, or plain out nasty about it)

by the way edward i would like to thank you on that part you are one of the first to confront me on an issue and not be completely rude and cruel about it. :-vD

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kklynch

i am 18 years old with a great love for this country and for God. if i do not like what is said i let ppl know also.

Member Since: 8/14/2008